Begin forwarded message:
From: Rocco Panepinto <[email protected]>
Subject: The Last Dialogue “the hydrologic cycle described in the Qur’an”
Date: February 3, 2020 at 12:11:47 AM GMT+4
To: [email protected]
In your article about how the Qur’an details the hydrologic cycle you claimed: “This concept was not fully understood until the 15th century AD. ”
However in the Bible there a number of accounts where the hydrologic cycle is described in much more detail and more exact than in the Qur’an — and much, much earlier!
Hhere are a couple of descriptions of the hydrologic cycle presented in the Bible: ““(27)He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams (28) the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.” Job 36:27,28 — this is a quote from Job, who lived over 2,500 years BEFORE Mohammad and before the Qur’an appeared.
Here’s another one: ” (6) The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. 7 All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there THEY RETURN AGAIN.” (Ecclesiastes 1:6,7) This was written by king Solomon approx. 1,500 years BEFORE Mohammad and the Qur’an.
Let’s be honest here, which of the descriptions of the hydrologic cycle are more exact and complete? Those found in the Qur’an or these two from the Bible? How can Muslim scholars and websites then make the claim, that before the Qur’an, there was no correct description of the hydrologic cycle? That is a bold-faced lie, since these statements in the Bible were made over 1,000 years before the Qur’an. Why do Islamic scholars have to resort to such untruths to propagate Islam? Is it necessary to prop up the Qur’an with untruths?
Thanks, Rocco, for your email and concern. First of all, just for your information, this website gets more traffic for the Bible than for Quran. We are on the top pages on search engines for hundreds of articles related to Christianity and Judaism, like Bible Statistics, Bible Summary, and Bible Miracles. Below are the links
Secondly, I have already discussed many miracles present in the Bible and various Biblical fulfilled prophecies. This compilation (Bible Miracles) is much more detailed, organized, and categorized as compared to any of other work from any Christian Or Jew. In that, I discussed all the details present in the Bible for water Cycle as mentioned by you in your email and many more other verses in the article https://thelastdialogue.org/article/water-cycle/
As for your concern that all these things already mentioned in the Bible much earlier than the Quran and Muhammad’s declaration of prophethood, than for that, you need to remove the spectacle of bias and should read many more articles on my website regarding religions and scriptures. Source of all the divine scriptures is the same i.e., from the Al-Mighty The All-Wise. It is only that some topics discussed in detail in one book while another topic or dimension of a topic in another Holy Book Or Scripture.
For Water cycle it is actually Bible which has more details than that of Quran. But for Big bang, Pulsars, Celestial Orbits, Shape and rotation of the earth, Human creation, although all mentioned in the Bible, the Quran gives more detail and elaborated on that topic. I suggest that you should read any article of your interest from here https://thelastdialogue.org/quran-miracles/
Again my request that while reading these articles, please remove any spectacles of beliefs, prejudice, and bias and read that with a mind of a researcher.
Have a great day
On Feb 3, 2020, at 3:27 PM, Rocco Panepinto <*********@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for your kind and quick response! In past experiences, when I lay out questions that have come up when reading the Qur’an and comparing it with the Bible, I almost never get an informed and verifiable response. If you are willing I would really like to exchange with you. Seriously, for me it’s not about winning an argument, but just a desire to be right with the Creator God. I am prepared to go wherever the truth leads.
In your response you admitted that the Bible has much earlier and more detailed and concise descriptions of the hydrologic cycle than are found in the Qur’an — but still on your website and on many other Islamic websites and books — they make the claim, that before the 15th century (and before the Qur’an) there was not such a clear presentation available. That simply is not true. Doesn’t it bother Muslims to make such false claims — or is that okay in Islam? That was my point.
I have taken the time to research Muslim claims (from DVD’s and Muslim websites) about current scientific discoveries already mentioned such as the Big Bang, the origin of iron in the earth, the stages of development of the embryo in the womb, etc. and I have found that what is actually found in the Qur’an was very sketchy — and almost all of of the scientific proof is simply read into the verses from the Qur’an. If you want I can give you specifics.
Let me give you an example of a question that was posed to me recently about the “Sleepers in the Cave” — Surah Al-Kahf (18) vv. 8-26. Many Islamic commentators make the claim that this story comes out of the Bible. This is not true. Actually this story first appears as a legend and fictional story first presented by Jacob of Serugh in the 5th century and various people embellished the legend in following years. The most well-known telling of this legend was formulated by Gregory of Tours from the beginning of the 6th century. That’s the source, before Mohammad incorporated parts of this legend in the Qur’an. In my reading of the Qur’an I discovered that many such legends made up long after the time they supposedly took place have been incorporated into the Qur’an.
In the Bible the apostle Peter writes followers of Jesus this: “For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.” 2. Peter 1:16 he then goes on to warn believers not to base their faith on man-made legends. I take this warning very seriously in my walk with God!
As I wrote, after reading the Qur’an many questions came up — but Muslim teachers do not respond. If you are willing I would gladly exchange with you about this. As I wrote “exchange” — that means you can also ask me questions about things in the Bible or in the Christian faith which bother you.
I write this out of love for God and His truth! — Rocco Panepinto
Thanks again Rocco for your email reply. I must say you are a gentle soul.
As for your concern regarding the claim on my article for the Water cycle that before the 15th century, there was not such a clear presentation available. By this, I meant that scientifically there was no authentic explanation till that time. See my words “This concept was not fully understood until the 15th century AD.” “NOT FULLY UNDERSTOOD”. As for its mention in Bible or any other old scripture, it becomes insignificant as all such verses have become a miracle only today when we realized after the scientific exploration that these concepts were already there in the scriptures.
Also, without having proper scientific knowledge at the time of the Prophet Muhammad even if he got a chance to read Bible, those verses did not have anything special for him to pick and copy-paste in the Quran. I sincerely suggest that please read the Quran last 40-50 small Surahs first and get an idea of the message. The similarities that are there in-between scriptures are only because of the fact that their source is the same. Keep in mind that all the Holy Books are not books of history or science but of morality, glad tidings and warnings.
I believe in all the books and respect them. Just consider if the Quran is from God, then what would be the situation on the day of Judgement.
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 2:40 AM Rocco Panepinto <**********@gmail.com> wrote
Thank you for your response. I can agree with you that until the 15th century the hydrologic was not fully understood by the scientific world. But claiming that this cycle is described in the Qur’an is a misleading exaggeration, because a cycle is not mentioned there at all. What I find in the quotes from the Qur’an are just references how rain falls from the sky and flows into springs or how the rain soaks into the soil. Those things were well known long before the 15th century and before the Qur’an just by the observance by normal people. No miracle there! You are just reading a miracle into it!
However in contrast the Bible references do indeed describe a cycle — it describes how water is drawn up into clouds by distilling/evaporation and then pour down this distilled moisture as rain. Also that all the streams eventually flow into the sea, but the sea is never full, because where the streams flow, they return again. So — rain comes down, gathers into streams, which flow into the sea, the water distills/evaporates then becomes clouds, which then rain water which again gather into streams etc. This cycle was described over 2,400 years before scientists figured it out. Now seriously if there is anything amazing here it is found in the Bible, not the Qur’an!
I have read the Qur’an and after finding so many plagarisms and mix-ups (such as the story of the “Sleepers in the cave” which you did not respond to) and this has caused me to seriously question it as a revelation from God. The main discrepancy which sets off the alarm bells with me is the claim in the Qur’an that Jesus the Messiah was not crucified, since this is so well established as a fact. First prophetically: many of the prophets of God foretold that this is how God would save mankind, with a substitute sacrifice. For instance, how did God choose to save Abraham’s son from death? With a substitute sacrifice a “fadah”. Although the Qur’an does not even give mention what the better sacrifice was — it does use the word “fadah” in Sura 37 (As-Saaffat) verse 107 “we ransomed him with a tremendous victim”. In the Bible – Genesis 22 – the substitute sacrifice (a ram) and the location (Mt. Moriah) are given — it was the same location where Jesus the Messiah would later give his life as a substitute sacrifice. It was a prototype pointing to the coming Savior/Messiah. Later God sent a death plague over the Egyptians. To save Israel from this judgment God told them to take a lamb and sacrifice it for each household. This passover lamb saved those who put their trust in it. That’s why the Jews celebrate the Passover until this day! The Passover Lamb was sacrificed at the same time that Jesus was sacrificed. Also John the Baptist (Yahya) pointed to Jesus and said “Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29)
The prophet Isaiah wrote these words about the Messiah 750 years before Jesus: ” But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isaiah 53:5,6)
Also Maryam and the closest followers of Jesus saw the Person on the cross — they heard His words forgiving His tormentors and this Person on the cross told his close follower John to take care of His mother Maryam. That definitely sounds like Jesus to me! The claim in the Qur’an that Allah deceived the people about the identity of the Person on the cross makes absolutely no sense in light of the many prophecies foretelling this, long before Jesus came! Why would God want to deceive Maryam and Jesus closest followers about who was on the cross?
This is a major discrepancy/contradiction between the Qur’an and His revelation He gave beforehand in the Bible — and as I see it, all the verifiable evidence is on the side of the Bible account. What better evidence can you provide from the Qur’an to the contrary?
This has gotten way too long — I guess I am so surprised that a Muslim is willing to respond and give answers has inspired me! Thank you again! Out of love for God and His truth — Rocco
The water cycle, with its much detail, is already there in the Quran. However, if you still insist on one particular aspect of Ecclesiastes 1:7 “To the place where the rivers flow there they flow again” then this particular information is not mentioned there in the Quran. But if for everything present in Quran you say that “Those things were well known long before the Quran just by the observance by normal people”. Than dear Rocco same goes with Bible as Ecclesiastes 1:7 “To the place where the rivers flow, there they flow again” then does not mean what you consider now in this modern age but merely mean observation of people of that time as ancient people believed that there are large watery hollows or tunnels in deep earth connected with sea that supplied the rivers with water through underground springs. Also, as in 7 B.C., Thales of Miletus held the theory whereby the waters of the oceans, under the effect of winds, were thrust towards the interior of the continents.
So if we go as per your point of view, Bible verse also loses its miracle. Unless you do some word gymnastic as you did in your email by combining various verses and stitching them together. In the email, you wrote, “So — rain comes down, gathers into streams, which flow into the sea, the water distills/evaporates then becomes clouds, which then rainwater which again gather into streams etc.” The evaporation portion you added just before Ecclesiastes 1:7 last part “to add weight and meaningfulness in it as per modern science. From this point of view, Quran is far more meaningful as it mentioned the source of springs as rainwater and also mentioned soaking through soil explaining the complete water cycle, i.e., water fall, penetration of water in the soil and evaporation phenomenon.
As for rain process, the details that are there in the Quran are far more elaborate than that of the Bible see
It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky however He wills, and He makes them fragments so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice (Sura 30, Verse 48)
Do you not see that Allah drives clouds? Then He brings them together, then He makes them into a mass, and you see the rain emerge from within it. And He sends down from the sky, mountains [of clouds] within which is hail, and He strikes with it whom He wills and averts it from whom He wills. The flash of its lightening almost takes away the eyesight. (Surah Nur 24:43)
The above verses clarify the processes of evaporation, condensation, fragmentation and rain-cycle. All these are very modern concepts and are not there in the Bible.
I am only replying at the moment for question relating to this issue. The reason being if you want to ask me regarding typical questions circulating among Christians regarding errors and objections in Quran, then I will say that all this stuff is already there on Net, and many Muslim websites have already discussed such things in detail. If you are really in search of truth than please first read all that already present and I will pray for you that God May guide you. But in both the Bible and Quran, it’s written that guidance is from God. Even if we show people miracles by showing them ascending to heaven by a ladder even than, some will not believe the same as in the case of Ascension of Christ, you believe, but Jews don’t believe. Also, many didn’t believe in Jesus in his lifetime, even by seeing miracles.
Further, I know these typical questions very well; they are almost the same that I could see on Christian websites and blogs and then their counter retorts on Muslim sites. If that is the way to go, then I must say honestly that the stuff against the Bible is far more in quality and quantity, pointing to errors in the Bible, whether historical, theological, or scientific.
For Scientific Miracles, Quran is far ahead of the Bible in describing various things. This is not because the Quran is superior to the Bible but because of the mere fact that it revealed later and is the latest version of Divine Revelation. In the Revelations and Scriptures, God sent, everything was same regarding God Himself and His Kingdom (This whole Universe), the differences mainly were in the teachings necessary as per that particular time frame of human evolution. But humankind made alterations in scriptures. Bible got literal alteration in its content. Those scriptures and Words of God, which are still in their original form (Quran), People also changed and altered their meanings and interpretation by making a web of historical events, stories and human sayings around them.
This corruption is directly related to time; the older the message, the greater the chances of its distortion. This time-related pollution happened because of two main reasons. First, because of not adequate means of preserving it in earlier times, wrongdoers got a chance to alter the message of God by hands for little worldly gains and secondly because of persecution. This persecution and fear of extinction forced communities to add certain things in their given scriptures to make people not run away from them and simultaneously to attract new followers. These alterations related to persecution also made some humans divine. The greater a community faced persecution, the greater the chances of alteration of scripture and divinity status of humans. Same as Christians made Jesus son of God.
Just a brief reply of Crucifixion is that what proof can you give for the Second Coming of Jesus except for the verses from the Bible. This would be circular reasoning. As for Jesus’s sacrifice and salvation Bible refute this concept as in Deut 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin’.
Jesus said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments and did not say that people should believe in Jesus as God. Also really strange that how Christians entered the doctrine of Trinity in their creed. Bible Book of Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 clearly show that God is not man, while Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible as in Matthew 16:27, John 8:40, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31 and Timothy 2:5. Bible also says that God is not a son of man as in Numbers 23:19(See KJV) while Jesus is often called a son of man as in Matthew 12:40, Matthew 16:27, Mark 2:10, and John 5:27. Also, as John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
I put the last verse John 20:17 to refute any chance of claim that might arise in minds that why everywhere in Bible, God is called as Father (Thus He must be a father of Jesus). Bible is full of such instances where God is called “Father” of other persons, People, and nations as well. Old Testament also has many such instances like Psalm 2:7 “I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” and as in Isaiah 64:8 ” Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.”
Thus Father is actually a metaphor and not a proper name for God but one of many titles by which Jews speak of regarding God in a sense that God is “Father” to all humans because he created the world and, in that sense “fathered” the world. Similarly expression “Son of God” only meant ‘Servant of God’; one who is close and dear to God as a son is to his father and cannot be accepted literally because in Bible, God addresses many of his chosen servants as ‘son’ and ‘sons as in Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers,for they will be called sons of God.” and in Deuteronomy 14:1 “You are the children of the Lord your God.”
Jesus Refuted even the farthest claim of his Divinity as in Matthew 19: 16-17 “Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” There is not a single clear statement in the whole Bible where Jesus himself says that he is God people should worship him. In fact he preached quite the contrary as in John 14:28. John 10:29, Matthew 12:28 and Acts 2:22 he is clearly saying that that God is greater than Jesus and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God. If Christians say that God(Father) is greater than the son but still Jesus the son is also God,… then they should see this below
Exodus 20:3: You shall have no other gods before me.
Deut 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Isaiah 45:5: I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 46:9: I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
Mark 12:28-29: One of the teachers of the law came and asked Jesus, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Have a great rest of the day